Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Here we'll stuff all those things we want to keep for later reading. Like the "Ask the musher"-series.

Suggestions for topics to be moved here are welcome!

Moderators: fladogfan, libby the lab, mira, mamamia, sc-race-fan

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:23 pm

Hi Jeanie
You are right - travel from the lower 48 to Alaska can be pretty expensive, particularly if you stay awhile. Early on, the source of funds was my own credit card. I got interested, wanted to know more, and believed that if I got enough experience and data, I could eventually convince someone else to pay for my trips. That almost didn't happen. One problem was that in order to do it right, I needed some very specialized help and they weren't nearly as driven to deplete their bank accounts for some pipe dream as I was - so in many cases I was paying not only my way, but some of theirs too. I got pretty far into debt, but fortunately I got some other folks (NIH and Dept of Defense) attention at just the right time. NIH was primarily interested in how the dogs' lungs adapt to the cold, and DoD was (and still is) interested in metabolic strategies that improve exercise endurance.
Now, who pays for the trip depends on the subject of the research. When we're doing metabolism work (like the upcoming Iditarod study), I am putting that on one of the grants. When I am doing something else unrelated to the specific goals of a grant (like some of the gastric ulcer stuff and the upcoming Quest study), then it comes out of some discretionary money I have socked away at the university. In all the cases, if I'm not careful, it comes out of my pocket one way or another. Even when I have grants, I am supposed to be paying my salary and the salaries of everyone who works for me out of that finite pool of money. Like any small business, the boss gets paid last so if I overdo it on the travel or have too many surprise unplanned expenses, it starts eating into my paycheck. Similarly, the discretionary money is rainy-day type accounts that I will have to rely on if I go through a dry spell for funding, and if I've used up too much of it on studies I don't get paid.
I'm not the only one making sacrifices. The mushers that run dogs for the studies are often doing so for nothing (if it is a project that I am not getting paid for, then generally neither is anyone else), and often times when we are trying out something new or different, we have to do pilot studies in which no one gets paid, all in the hopes of the data resulting in a grant that will pay us. When we start seeing the bottom of a grant, often everyone goes on an austerity plan in which I try as best I can to reimburse for out of pocket expenses directly related to the project, but everyone still winds up donating their time and trouble in order to get things done. There are a lot of very dedicated mushers out there that "get it" - they are willing to contribute whatever they can in order to make things better for the dogs, and they really deserve every bit as much recognition for that as for their racing success.
Not to leave out the corporate stuff. I've not received any funding from sponsors or commercial corporations, but when we do a study in conjunction with the major races, it is with the full support of that race. Like the mushers, the provide what they can. Iditarod has, in the past, provided travel up and down the race and access to the checkpoints and food like any other volunteer, and the Quest has provided lodging (where lodging actually existed) and logistical support on past studies. Like the mushers, they are committed to facilitating studies that improve the health and well-being of the dogs.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby boo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:05 pm

Thank you so much for answering all our questions, Dr. Mike! Between what you are doing and what performance dog food companies are doing in formulating the high-octane kibble, it is wonderful to see the improvements in understanding and equipping the dogs to do what they absolutely want to do.

Prevalence of ulcers in sled dogs depends on the situation. Rested, untrained (i.e., August) dogs are like any other dogs. About 2% of trained rested dogs will have "clinically significant lesions". We presume that these are dogs that developed problems during racing that haven't healed - racing-induced ulcers heal on their own with 3-4 days of rest. Exercise intensity around 150 miles/day will produce lesions in about 75% of the dogs; about 65% of the dogs at 100 miles/day. Interestingly, if you do lots of 100 mile days in a row (i.e., Iditarod), the prevalence drops AND the microscopic appearance of the tissue improves. In other words, the dogs seems to adapt even to that. With effective acid suppression, the prevalence drops to less than 10%.


The numbers tell the story.....acid suppression is important.

I have kind of an aside question that you may or may not be able to answer. We have Alaskan husky as the basis in the kennel, but we also have some crossing in of Running Walker Hound (one stud) and GSP (another stud) in the breeding. The amount of water and food required by the Alaskans is significantly less than what the hotter crosses require. That said, do you see differences in working with thousands of sled dogs, that follow the breeding differences? Seems like electrolytes would be very different between the classic northern breeds and the sprint/mid crosses that are also doing distance. Are there also differences in matters of ulcers, SDM, etc.?
boo
User avatar
boo
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:33 pm
Location: Bend, Oregon

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:29 pm

Hi Boo
There really hasn't been much done as far as precise electrolyte requirements in sled dogs or any others beyond the basic requirements for maintenance, so I don't have any good feel for species differences. My suspicion, though, is that across the board, the activity is more important than the species - if you have a dog running 100 miles/day, that activity will dictate the requirements more than the breed of dog that does it. Of course, the number of breeds that can do that sort of thing is few, so it will appear that the requirements are breed-specific, when it is more of an indirect influence. Same for pretty much any other exercise-related condition.
An interesting article (I didn't do the study) came out last summer in which some scientists broke down the genetics of racing sled dogs. They found there was less variability with the population designated as a racing sled dog than they have found in virtually any AKC-recognized breed. In other words, from a genetics standpoint there may be a lot of ways to make a short-legged, long-bodied brown weiner dog, but there is only one way to make a fast dog. The variability in outward appearance is deceiving - they are much more similar than we realized.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby jplife » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:04 pm

Hey there Dr.
Thanks for coming on here.
For sled dogs that are on the move on a daily basic.Do you say that it is all right for them to be tie up after a run at there dog house or do prefer them in a shelter and rub down for the night to warm their muscles.I know some musher do this that are racing all the time,but what about the recreation musher.
What would you say is the best protein that sleddog that are racing should eat. :D
How do know when a dog has had enough of pulling in a race?(When you check them at a check point.)
Thanks for your time.
Southern Alberta :D
User avatar
jplife
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:47 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:36 am

Hi Southern Alberta
There isn't any evidence that rubbing the dogs down or keeping them inside is of any benefit physically or physiologically. That's not to say that they wouldn't enjoy it - I'm sure they would just like I would after a workout, and that might be quite a benefit psychologically. I would point out that their muscles probably don't need to be warmed - during exercise their muscles are the source of all that excess body heat, and they probably reach temps of 108F (42C) or so. The blood flow to the muscles will remain increased after exercise until all of the things that caused the blood flow to increase (excess heat and other waste products) are gone, at which point the muscle can go back to being relatively inert until the next run.
I don't mean this to sound flip, but the best protein for a racing dog is the protein that they will eat. That is to say, it doesn't matter what it is if it never gets in the dog, and most problems with nutrition in these dogs starts with them not being willing to eat it or eat enough of it. Strictly speaking, my suspicion is that racing dogs probably get protein in excess of their requirements due to the logistics of feeding. If you are feeding a particular dog food that provides all of their nutritional needs at rest or light work, then try to match their increased calorie needs with more of that food, they wind up eating more protein than they need. During exercise their protein requirements go up, but not as much as the calorie requirements. My preference for protein to support a working dog is going to be animal based - some sort of meat. The additional protein needs of a working dog are based on the wear and tear (and conditoining and growth) on their muscles and connective tissue, so that type of food will be the closest to the amino acid mix that they need. That's not to say that plant-based protein can't do it. I just suspect it will require more protein to cover all the amino acid demands.
The single most important thing about a checkpoint exam is, whenever possible, watch them come in. Dogs that have their heads up, tails up, and a spring in their step are doing fine from an overall condition basis. A dog may still have a specific condition that mandates them being dropped (injury, whatever), but dogs that look like that are dogs that don't really need anything more than some food, water, and a nap. On the other hand, dogs that come dragging in mandate a closer look. There are many things that signal that the dogs need more than a brief checkpoint break - temperatures that don't return to normal quickly, dogs that are too tired to eat or drink, dogs that look uncoordinated or are not focused on the job. These are the ones that may have had enough for this race. It is important not to judge to quickly, though. Often these are not necessarily dogs that need to be dropped as much as they need 8-10 hrs of rest instead of 3-4 hrs, then they are good to go, and sometimes that fits into the musher's race just fine. Strategically, it makes sense to run the tank down a bit lower than usual coming into a checkpoint where you know you will be spending extra time, but it can be a fine line. Aside from injury or significant debiliatation, I don't usually outright recommend that a dog be dropped. I simply indicate that he/she is not ready to leave yet. He/she will eventually be ready to leave, but if that is too far in the future for the musher, then they should probably leave without that dog.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby emwcee » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:35 am

Me again. I'm curious what goes on at a vet check during the Iditarod or other race. What kind of exam do you give and what do you check for? How is the vet notebook used?
User avatar
emwcee
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:12 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:28 am

Tough to answer briefly (even worse than my long-winded answers so far). Despite efforts to standardize things, every race, every checkpoint, and every vet is different, so there is no single answer. In general, the "running eyeball" (watching them come into the checkpoint) is pretty standard and tells quite a bit. Dogs that are atypical in a negative way (everyone is happy except that one) will get immediate attention with a more thorough, hands-on physical exam, but many of the apparently healthy ones will also get the once-over to sort of "calibrate" your exam. Stu Nelson has preached the HAWL acronym for years, and it stands the test of time: Hydration (skin tent, examining gums and eyes), Attitude (bright? responsive? hungry? interested in its own wellbeing?), Weight (feel for adequate weight and lack of muscle loss), and lungs (listen to the chest). The exams are designed to be efficient - concentrate on looking for common problems and don't waste time looking for things that are not likely to be there or don't matter in the context of the checkpoint/race. In other words, we look for discolored urine in the snow (pretty easy to see) because we know the dogs are at risk for that due to the race. We don't spend a bunch of time looking for skin disease, cataracts, or dogs in need of a dental exam because those are not prevalent in sled dogs on the trail or are not life-threatening in the context of the race. It doesn't take long through sheer repetition to get proficient (fast and accurate).
The vet book comes in handy as a final double-check of the team. We'll be interested in which direction the dogs are going health-wise. If Spot seemed a bit dehydrated at the previous checkpoint, but didn't seem to be at this one, we'll go back and check Spot again just to make sure. Conversely, if Spot seems a bit dehydrated NOW, we'd like to know whether this is a new thing or something that has been developing. The vet book doesn't overrule the current exam - if the dog looks fine right now, then it is good to go. The vet book helps draw out attention to things, but it is the past and not the present.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby runaway_sibe » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:24 am

Hi Dr. Mike, thanks a lot for taking the time to be with us.

I'm Gabriela, from México, please, forget my spelling mistakes, english its not my mother languaje. I love mushing, the sleds dogs, but basically, the siberian huskies. I've been interested in this since a long time ago, but I recently follow the races. The most important thing for me is the dogs, and there's a lot people who believes that mushing is almost like dogs fights, I know this is not the same, and living in a country where abusing dogs is like the most common thing in the world, so I'm very concern of supporting an activity that may cause animal abuse, that's why I have to ask this:

1. As a Vet, do you ever saw any musher hiting or abusing any of his dogs? (You don't have to say names)

2. The mushers follow vets indications about the health of any of the dogs?, or they just don't care? I mean, if you say to one musher: "this dog is done" they obbey? or they just keep the dog on the race?

3. The Iditarod had received a lot of critics for the numbers of dead dogs during the race, what you should recommend to the organizers to improve dogs health and care? There's any rule would you like to add/change in order to decrease the number of dead dogs?

4. In many websites anti-mushing I've readed that the intestinal problems of the dogs is a consecuence of being smelling (and some sites even say eating) the excrement and urine of the the dogs on the front. It's that true?

5. Is there any increasing rate of any articular disease in old retired sled dogs than non-sled dogs? I mean, a sled dog has more probability to get Arthritis than a house dog?

6. You talked about the genetics of the dog, and a lot of mushers seems to be very proud of their kennel genetic. Do you ever saw that any kennel kills any dog just for not having the genetic or the aptitudes to race? That's another issue that constantly repeat on those sites.

7. And finally, a sled dog is happy when is always on chain next to their dog house? That's my personal critic to the mushers, and it's because I hate to see dogs chained to something. Here in México, is a constant, as the dogs living on the rooftops too, with no house, no water, no food, and in the heat of the mexican sun.

Thanks a lot for your answers, and please, don't misunderstanding me, I love mushing, but I love the dogs more, I just want to be well informed when someone attacks me for love mushing.

PS. I almost forgot it! I'm studying machine learning, that its, algorithms to discover patterns based on observed data, and using statistical and artificial intelligence. If you need some help to your investigation, I would be more than happy to collaborate! I'm a good computers programmer, so I think this could be very interesting.
User avatar
runaway_sibe
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:00 pm
Location: México

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:40 pm

Hi Gabriela
I think I can give you some pretty direct answers:
1. No, in the 10 years that I've been working with sled dogs, I have never personally observed a musher abusing their dogs in any way. The only specific incident in that 10 years that has been documented sufficiently for me to believe it happened (without me actually seeing it) was a few years back when Ramy Brooks struck his dogs during Iditarod. Ramy admitted to it, and was assessed the maximum punishment available to the race marshall during the race (disqualification), and further assessed one-step short of maximal punishment by the Iditarod Trail Committee during the post-race investigation. The tales of mass beatings, whipping, etc, if they ever actually happened, occurred so far in the past that they have no place in a discussion about the present state of the sport.
2. Officially, the race veterinarians are in an advisory role to the musher and the race officials. We don't have the authority to compel a musher to drop a dog, but as a general rule, our advice is heeded because the mushers DO care and want to err on the side of dropping a dog that might not need to, rather than keeping one that they shouldn't. It depends on the recommendation and the emphasis behind it. If I feel strongly enough about the condition of a dog to state with emphasis that "this dog needs to be dropped", most mushers will do so. They may be grouchy and complain about it, but they are generally grouchy and complain about everything in the middle of a race ;) . Same with the race officials if the musher decides not to follow my recommendation. However, there is a factor of veterinarian experience. Every single vet out there has, at one point, been a rookie vet and there is a learning curve in accurately evaluating the dogs. Therefore, most of the time if there are multiple vets the more junior one will call the more senior one over to get their opinion before making any drastic recommendations.
3. I think the organizers have been doing what they should do to minimize dog deaths. It was the Iditarod staff that first contacted me about doing the gastric ulcer research because, as a result of their programs to identify a specific cause of death in any dog that dies, they had identified gastric ulcer-related issues as the number one problem. They provide me with the logistical support to conduct the studies, and they have been in the forefront of getting the information to the mushers and trail vets as quickly as it becomes available. The most recent thing that they've done is to make the entry requirements more stringent in the hopes that the folks that get out on the trail are better prepared for ANY circumstance that they encounter. It will take time to see whether those measures reduce dog deaths even further. Statistically, the mortality rate is already very, very low compared to the dog population worldwide, but there is an unwavering commitment on the part of the race organizations and the mushers that even one avoidable death is too many, and they are willing to take measures to eliminate as many as they can.
4. No, I don't think so. There have been many, many studies done on possible causes of intestinal problems in the dogs, and none of the studies have identified a single issue or even just a few issues. My own personal opinion is that the majority of the "intestinal problems" are not particularly important - they simply represent excess water in the feces for any number of uncomfortable, but not particularly pathological reasons. As long as the dogs are not getting dehydrated, and most of the time they are not, then it may be messy but otherwise not important.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

Re: Ask the Vet with Dr. Mike Davis 1/19-1/31

Postby Leaddog » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:58 pm

Part 2
5. Any athlete, dog or human, has an increased risk of arthritis as a result of the additional stress on their joints and the likelihood that, somewhere along the line, they are going to take a bad step or something. Martin Buser likes to say that for the average dog, there are a million steps between Anchorage and Nome. That's a million separate opportunities to land wrong and twist a wrist, etc. But I don't think sled dogs are any more at risk than any other athlete. Coincidentally, this week I finally had to break down and start my 10 yr old retriever on daily pain meds - enough accumulated twists, sprains, and bruises that he wasn't exercising as much anymore due to discomfort. A couple of days of the meds, and he's acting half his age, enough so that I may start myself on some too. As the saying goes, it's not the years, it's the mileage.
6. Similar to the issue of dog abuse, I've not seen any culling in the manner that the websites refer to. Yes, folks will produce litters and not all of them make the team, but those get sold if they are pretty good but not great, or given away if they are just not that good. Other dogs will have physical defects or develop diseases or injuries that are not amenable to treatment and those are euthanized, just like pet dogs. I do take every opportunity to tease the mushers that are selling or giving away the dogs that they should be careful - it will be awfully embarrasing if that dog beats them to Nome and is there to greet them at the finish line!
7. The two mushers that I work with the most have similar styles when they arrive back in the dog yard after a run: They simple unharness the dog and turn it loose. Nine times out of 10, the dog runs straight to their house. The only 10% of the time, they spend about 30 sec running around causing trouble, then run straight to their house. That's their home, and not only do they not mind being there, they prefer it. It is THEIR SPACE. The dogs do need some sort of shelter that they can climb into to get out of the elements when they want to (and obviously a dog should have the proper amount of food and clean water), but the chain and house system is not a problem at all as long as it is kept free of waste. In addition, restricting their ability to get into trouble somehow, whether it is individual housing or large fenced enclosures is in fact the more responsible thing to do as opposed to letting them run free. Individual large fenced enclosures are unnecessary, and group housing can be problematic if, at 3AM, two dogs decide not to get along.
I do appreciate your enthusiasm for the sport, as well as your generous offer to help out in the research program. I will definitely keep it in mind.
User avatar
Leaddog
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:29 am

PreviousNext

Return to Archive

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron