Shrinking teams

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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mira » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:34 am

Actually, I find this a more interesting coincidence to follow than the too high speed theory.

In cross-country skiing the humans are having big risks of getting asthma because of the cold temperatures. They have currently a minimum temperature of racing being 0F (almost). This has caused lots of discussions because they need meds that are forbidden by WADA and some consider this as "work" - disease.

Of course, these dogs are breeded for cold weather, but I don't think it is so far fetched that they might be some problems if it's cold enough.

I do hope someone looks into this, someone who knows what he or she is doing.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby fladogfan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:01 pm

I have learned so much from you just reading this thread. Truth be told I haven't read Craig's article but believe I've gotten the feel of it from you. Might go back and read it later.

It's very interesting about the cold being a factor in the problems. It certainly makes sense to me. One of my friends gets cold induced asthma in the winter weather, she has to be very careful about exposure to too cold temps.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby elsietee » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:11 pm

mira wrote:In cross-country skiing the humans are having big risks of getting asthma because of the cold temperatures. They have currently a minimum temperature of racing being 0F (almost)....

Of course, these dogs are breeded for cold weather, but I don't think it is so far fetched that they might be some problems if it's cold enough.


Looking at the basic stats (cold in 2015 = dog deaths, cold in 2017 = dog deaths), you assume there ought to be a correlation.

Yet only Seth's dog died during the cold weather (and by then it was waning), while Roger's was much later, and Kat's was near Koyuk - after people reported better-than-usual weather in Shak (although I don't know if that was still true by the time Kat got there). And interestingly, they report pulmonary edema in Roger's dogs - which has to give you pause.

Is the damage done when the temps are low, and the culmulative work-load gradually catches up to the dogs afterwards?


(Mira wrote: ...these dogs are breeded for cold weather...
Mira - your english is excellent, and frankly anyone who can string together a coherent sentence in english as a second language has my heartfelt admiration.
In this case, it is "bred" (past tense of "to breed"). "...these dogs are bred for cold weather...")
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mamamia » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:21 pm

mira wrote:Actually, I find this a more interesting coincidence to follow than the too high speed theory.

In cross-country skiing the humans are having big risks of getting asthma because of the cold temperatures. They have currently a minimum temperature of racing being 0F (almost). This has caused lots of discussions because they need meds that are forbidden by WADA and some consider this as "work" - disease.

Of course, these dogs are breeded for cold weather, but I don't think it is so far fetched that they might be some problems if it's cold enough.

I do hope someone looks into this, someone who knows what he or she is doing.


Interesting Mira, I didn't know that. And fdf said she had a friend who gets cold induced asthma. I also know that as a nurse if we get a cold front that comes through with very cold dry air it will bring those who are more sensitive to the hospital with difficulty breathing. Especially interesting since the necropsy on Roger Lee's dog showed death by pulmonary edema. For those who aren't familiar with this term, edema means swelling with fluid and pulmonary of course refers to the lungs. Pulmonary edema is not fluid in the lungs like the lungs are a container of fluid. It is swelling of the tissues in the lungs which results in fluid blocking the transport of oxygen and carbon dioxide in and out. This can be caused by poor circulation through the lungs as in cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart) which we have already discussed. There was no mention in the press release that Roger's dog had cardiomyopathy. Another cause is what we called Acute Lung Injury. In my business (ICU nursing) I used to explain it like this: You know how when you roll your ankle and injure it it swells? The swelling or inflammation is caused by the body transporting fluid to the injury to carry all the things it needs to heal it.Well the same thing can happen in your lungs. Acute lung injury can be caused by a variety of things but the results are the same, a dramatic inflammatory response in the lungs resulting in an accumulation of fluid in the tissues and blocking the ability of the lungs to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide. So to connect the dots, imagine an exposure to extreme cold that creates an inflammatory response in the lungs (we know they run with their mouths open reducing the ability of the body to warm the air) which progresses to pulmonary edema, oxygen deprivation and collapse.
Elsietee wrote
Yet only Seth's dog died during the cold weather (and by then it was waning), while Roger's was much later, and Kat's was near Koyuk - after people reported better-than-usual weather in Shak (although I don't know if that was still true by the time Kat got there). And interestingly, they report pulmonary edema in Roger's dogs - which has to give you pause.
Elsie I have seen this inflamatory process happen slowly over hours or days and I have also seen it happen very quickly over a matter of minutes. It depends on what actually caused the original insult to the lungs and how severe it was. So a cold related lung injury on the trail to or from Huslia could manifest in Koyuk. Or possibly a small injury which is managable suddenly becomes worse because of the rigors of an 11 or 12 hour run.

This is more information than you probably needed but we are always left in the dark about why these dogs die and there is so much speculation often pointing fingers at some failure of the musher to adequately safeguard his team. Yet, in this discussion we have already identified the possibility of genetics, cardiomyopathy, and some kind of cold related process that is affecting the dogs. As I have said, I just hope someone in the vet world is working to connect these dots because I can see lots of dots that warrant further investigation.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby fladogfan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:25 am

My thought, as I read this thread today is, I wish Brent and all the other mushers who have lost dogs this way could read this thread. It might ease their guilt and sadness.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mira » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:14 pm

Very interesting indeed.

Elsietee, thank you for the kind words and for telling me what's right and wrong. Both is highly appreciated. (English was my worse subject in school, partly because I had trouble with the verbs and tense.. Not really helped by a teacher who thought it's a good idea to teach English grammar in English. I mean, when you don't know what tense is it's kind of hard to understand the rest. Luckily enough, in the real world, most people seems to understand what I mean, even if I mix it up from time to time. And this is totally off topic).
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby fladogfan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:18 pm

I like to read your writings mira, it feels like you are talking to us with your Norwegian accent! ;)
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