Shrinking teams

This is a forum for general discussion of dogsled racing, with a special focus on Alaska, and is open to all. It is expected that this area will see the most activity during the months leading up to, and during the annual Iditarod sled dog race. Pictures from races can be posted here. Hosting is provided by the Bering Strait School District (BSSD), and the area is open all year. Care to be one of our volunteer moderators? Contact us!

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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mira » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:32 pm

Thank you so much mamamia!

This is so important and I do hope everyone supports the researches in these fields.

Regarding number of dogs, anyone who knows if more dogs are dropped now than earlier? It really doesn't matter, because it hasn't much to do with this, I just got curious. In the "few" years I've been around, and especial the last 4-5 years (or something) it seems to me to be more competitive teams on trail than earlier. I haven't heard of any hawaii shirts and inflatable palms for a while.. But I just wondered if higher speed (also in the back, perhaps most noticeable in the back) makes for more dropped dogs. Higher speed, more risk for sore wrists and shoulders (I think?).

Regarding comments on news articles, facebooks online, in general I do not read them. The Internet is full of trolls, busy trolling. I have no need for filling up my head with stuff like that.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby elsietee » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:19 pm

mamamia wrote:....sudden collapse during exercise like chasing a ball that has become a really bad problem in...Dobermans. ...The belief is that it is so deeply ingrained in their genetics that it can't be fixed.


I thank my lucky stars that my dobie never had this problem. She died of cancer at the ripe age of 12. Up until the last couple of years, she would often come with me on horse rides (10-15 miles) - trotting along the trail directly behind me. The only times I had to worry was when the temperatures got up - after it hit 80 degrees, I could only take her if we were doing a walking ride. And she was a BIG dog - 85 lbs. I used to worry in case she got injured - as to how I'd get her off the trail.

(nowadays I have a 23 lb rat terrier with a bum leg. He's good for a while, but is more than happy to be carried on the saddle [there's a great view up there!] for miles and miles).


I'm hoping that the vets are putting this all together but genetics is a tricky thing ...At the very least identifying it will take some of the pressure off of the mushers who do have a dog collapse and have to suffer not only the self recrimination but the public flogging that seems to follow.


That's the part I feel the worst about - "there but for the grace of god go I".

Roger Lee this year - in red lantern position, taking lots of rest, not going fast - still had a dog go down.

It makes me so angry to read the finger pointing - even mushers who should *know* better - sitting there so smug and righteous. No-one has any business passing *any* judgement on a musher who has the misfortune of this happening. Those people weren't there, and they have *no idea* what was going on.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby fladogfan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:53 pm

mamamia you sure were correct saying have tissues handy. Of course I was already primed since while walking Lucky I was thinking about Lacey's last day and how much I miss her.


The info here today is news to me, especially the part about Dobies. What is happening to our dogs? I hope the concern for the racing sled dogs translates to real help for all dogs so affected, just like the ulcer study has helped other working dogs.

Thank you for informing all of us about these problems.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mamamia » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:45 pm

In case you are still curious about genetic testing, you no longer have to work with a university. Genetic testing has moved into the commercial setting.

My breed the Boykin Spaniel is a small hunting breed with a small gene pool. The breed registry is working very hard to promote testing of hips, eyes, elbows, knees, heart and genetic testing for EIC of all potential breeders. They will partner with providers to set up at hunt tests and other gatherings to provide a discounted and easy way for owners to test their dogs. This is the Pawprint Genetics add for the upcoming Nationals (a hunt test). I thought you might be interested in the prices. These are heavily discounted because of group pricing. You can see that the prices are reasonable for the owner of one or two breeders but that it could add up quick for a big kennel.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby Di* » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:04 pm

Wow some really great discussion here, always impressed with the knowledge of forumites :D Curious what you think of this article and the possible connection between dog deaths & trail routes & speed at the beginning of the race.....

https://craigmedred.news/2017/03/16/is-harder-safer/
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby elsietee » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:39 pm

First of all - Craig Meldred likes to write contentious things, so I'm surprised he's not roasting the mushers in question the way he did Brent during the Quest. This article is pretty mild for Craig.

I'd agree with the concept that "speed kills" - it works the same way in the horse endurance world. In the last few years, the UAE decided to take up "endurance racing" (which is actually long-distance flat-track racing on groomed sand trails - reaching speeds of 25 mph for 100 miles - complete with vehicles/crews hazing horses to continue, horses dropping dead of exhaustion and stress fractures. It's horrendous and the rest of the horse endurance world are trying to distance themselves from these atrocities as fast as they can).

As far as the dogs dying in this particular race - Seth's died just outside Galena (after a long flat stretch of trail), Kat's died just outside Koyuk (also a long flat stretch of trail), while Roger's died before Unk (don't know that trail, but thought it was a bit less monotonous?).

(During horse events, when the terrain is flat and monotonous, I have to be careful not to just keep going "because we can". Usually the trail has hills, or twists, or rocky/technical sections, etc, which enforce a continuous speed-up-slow-down type pace - you're not just going and going. If you do get on such a trail, you have to remember to walk now and again, just to give the horse a break (or sometimes canter, to get him to use different muscle sets and get things flowing again internally). )


It's also interesting that all three dogs died towards the end of a long run, so you have to assume that it's exercise induced, rather than just "something".

Usually mushers comment that slower is better for the dogs in terms of injuries - Jessie said her dogs went slow and careful between Huslia and Koyukuk and that she felt that was helpful. Dallas deliberately slowed his down so they didn't injure themselves speeding along. But they are talking specifically about biomechanical (lameness) injuries, rather than "metabolic" ones.

(also of note, horses are much more delicate, metabolically. Endurance riders are obsessive about them EDPP - eating, drinking, pooping, peeing - and the attitude of the eating/drinking, the colour of the pee, and consistency of the poop. When they are working hard, all the blood shifts to their muscles and away from their guts (which are badly designed and fail often) - if you have a horse who's gut shuts down because of this, you can be in a world of hurt. You also have to watch for tying up (which I think also affects dogs) and resulting kidney damage. So it's a constant balancing act of going down the trail as fast as you safely can, while making sure that the horse is functioning correctly metabolically.)

And then you have Mitch and Nic both going gang-busters - and not getting injuries or dogs dropping... and I don't believe that's purely because "they trained better". Sh*t happens, and some are just luckier than others.

Of interest to me: I'd hazard to guess that Iditarod attracts a fair amount of "one and done" type mushers - people wanting to cross it off their bucket list - who get the bare necessity of qualifiers to get out there and do it. As a result, you usually get an above-average number of people scratching at the back, but thankfully it doesn't seem to affect the dogs. Why these mushers don't suffer from dog problems is anyone's guess - possibly their own limitations as far as needing to rest more than the dogs do?
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mira » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:16 pm

As elsietee says, you can't rule out that there is some kind o flight k, but he doesn't seem to me that he has really looked at the details. Positioning into Tanana doesn't say that much as long as he hasn't compared the actual elapsed time per team. The time adjusting is up to 2.5 hours for the first teams. I find the article too speculative for me, but it's a bit typical for the author.

None want to fade at the coast and all the experienced mushers talks a lot about how they need to held back the teams in the start. Sebastien Vergnaud started with 12 dogs, he faded a bit in the end but had a really decent race. I guess it might be easier for an experienced musher to keep the team slow enough in the start.

I seem to remember that a couple of mushers started with 14 or 15 dogs in 2014 because of the conditions down the gorge. Maybe they should consider the number of dogs needed?

The fastest time is also something that says a lot about the weather, but that is true enough, there weren't any external factors slowing the teams down this year as I can think of. Of course, you had some wind through the blowhole, but nothing big.

I've been looking at some numbers for this year running scheme, I post them later.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby Luna » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:47 pm

Over the years I' ve learned that dogs dont like racing if its to warm.
But I dont think it can be healthy racing if its get to cold either.
Both this year and 2015 was bitterly cold with temp reaching -40.
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby Eggs » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:43 am

Gross necropsy completed on Katherine Keith’s dog, Flash – March 16, 2017
http://d3r6t1k4mqz5i.cloudfront.net/wp- ... pdf?x86326

Gross necropsy completed on Roger Lee’s dog, Shilling – March 16, 2017
http://d3r6t1k4mqz5i.cloudfront.net/wp- ... pdf?x86326
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Re: Shrinking teams

Postby mamamia » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:14 am

First I would like to say that I thought Craig Medreds article was poorly done and his conclusions were loosely tied together. I think he was in a rush to get something on the blog while it was relevant. This subject goes much deeper than the ideas he tried to string together. As others have said the dogs that died this year were from teams that had been getting plenty of rest so we can't fault the musher's dog care. We discussed the possibility of genetics.
Luna wrote:Over the years I' ve learned that dogs dont like racing if its to warm.
But I dont think it can be healthy racing if its get to cold either.
Both this year and 2015 was bitterly cold with temp reaching -40.

I saw this mentioned after Brent's dogs collapsed in the Quest but no one is really talking about it. Brent's dogs collapsed after not only a bitterly cold race but after the run on Birch creek which is known to reach temperatures of -60. A commentator in something I was reading mentioned a couple of other dog collapses that happened during races with bitterly cold weather. Although the dog deaths in the Iditarod happened well past the severely cold stretches of the trail who can say but that the exposure to the severe cold set up a metabolic process that contributed to the collapse.
Elsietee said
(During horse events, when the terrain is flat and monotonous, I have to be careful not to just keep going "because we can".
Dogs are such willing creatures and are very good at hiding their problems. Does the same thought apply to driving them in -40 temps? Just because they can and will should we? Elsietee talks about how in her experience riding endurance how the horses are monitored for disturbances
Endurance riders are obsessive about them EDPP - eating, drinking, pooping, peeing - and the attitude of the eating/drinking, the colour of the pee, and consistency of the poop.
. The routine vet checks of sled dogs focuses more on hydration weight and injuries. Maybe there is something more that happens at a deeper metabolic level that comes from running in the extreme cold that they haven't clued into. In 2015 Lance had two dogs collapse on the Fairbanks routes. There were temps that year that were as low as -70. The years 2010 through 2014 when there were no trail related dog deaths were relatively warm Iditarods. 2009 was another extremely cold race and there were 6 dog deaths. 4 of those were "cause unknown". Two were in a team that was stranded in a bad storm with temps of -45. So maybe it is worth considering whether the dogs should be run through such severe temperatures "just because we can".
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